Talk:Figverse Wiki/Project Phoenix
Issues I'd want to know which are exactly the issues so we can find a solution. - Chimto (talk) 14:41, February 1, 2013 (UTC) Well, for example, we have a lot of pages like this that are broken, ugly and need to be taken care of. Then there are pages like Characters (Deliverance) that are simply pointless and useless. Beast Signer Alpha is a complete mess, and specific beast categories (like this one) have those pictures that cover up half of the recent activity and pictures. And this is only what I found after 3 minutes of searching. Michos (talk) 15:54, February 3, 2013 (UTC) :Not to mention re-writing most of the templates, defining policies, and fixing the "leaks." That's something I probably should have explained better: Basically, this site's code is pretty messed up, due to being around for a long time without proper maintenance. The HTML, where it exists, is riddled with deprecations, the CSS... needs a 'lot' of work, to say the least, and the JavaScript may-or-may-not need fixing. Probably not, since most of it originates from more professional locations. :I do think fixing the wiki we have is doable, but I also think that it doubles our workload. And much of that "plumbing" can only be done by admins, which is to say, myself. As I said, however, wikis are not places of absolute rule. I'm not trying to force an opinion on you, I'm trying to spark discussion, and if the majority says we stay, then we stay. :DarthKitty (talk) 01:27, February 7, 2013 (UTC) ::Well, Is there anything that the regular user can do to help? If so, give me an example, I will have a lot of free time now, so, yeah, anything I can do to help? ::And, with the stuff that only admins can fix - you only want to fix this stuff, or you want to change it? And if you do want to change it, what would you do? ::Michos (talk) 13:15, February 7, 2013 (UTC) :::There's not much you can do in terms of the CSS and JavaScript, unfortunately. The HTML shows up mostly in templates, although it can be found elsewhere, and most of it can be edited by regular users. But I'd like to approach this problem systematically, meaning there's some stuff (policy issues and such) which we should deal with first. And, of course, we have to decide whether we stay or we move. :::DarthKitty (talk) 00:36, February 8, 2013 (UTC) ::::Okay, I'm probably just incredibly dense, but I still don't follow what the plan regarding moving the site is. I asked DeeKay, hoping that he can explain to me all that, but talking with him only made me understand all of it less. ::::And since you are not elaborating on it (Probably assuming that most of us understand how stuff works...While I for one, don't) please, if you just could answer me on those questions: ::::The FHwiki would be moved to: ::::-Another wikia, or wikia-like service ::::-Completelty new clean, probably paid server ::::All the content from the wiki would be: ::::-Rewritten from the scratach, all of it ::::-Templates, site engine, javascript completelty rewritten, articles manually copied ::::-Everything automatically copied, templates, site engine, js rewritten (though I don't know how that would make stuff easier) ::::-If moved to a non-wikia server, all copied except for a wikia-related stuff. ::::The site engine and visual style would be: ::::-Kept mostly the same ::::-Rewritten, based on mediawiki or other simillar software ::::What are the issues with FHWiki policies? ::::Assuming that the site is going to move, is there a point in making new articles/uploading new stuff here? ::::(y/n) ::::Also, aside from all those questions, I think that if all the stuff is to be manually copied/rewritten (And I don't really know how your job would be easier if everything would be copied), lots of stuff wil probably be left behind, as recently - because of the lack of new games from Pseudo - FH community is really inactive, and the intrest in wiki is really low. ::::Staying here is probably the best idea, because even if not all the bugs and 'leaks' can be fixed, it's probably better to have a rich site with some technical problem, that technically perfect site with no informations or interest whatsoever. ::::Michos (talk) 15:06, February 9, 2013 (UTC) :::::One thing at a time. :::::Project Phoenix has incredibly large goals, and will probably take a long time to complete. A lot of it involves talking every issue to death before acting. :::::You ask what the plan is provided we move Fig Hunter Wiki. The answer is, we haven't decided on one yet. If we decide to move to a different wiki, then we will decide where we move, and when, and how. I'd rather not talk about policies just now, for similar reasons. :::::DarthKitty (talk) 17:49, February 9, 2013 (UTC) ::::::So...What you're saying is "We have no idea what we're planning to do, but we ask people if we should do it or not". Well, seems like a good idea to me, almost as good as asking people "Do you want to eat?" And when they ask "Eat what?" replying "Chocolate or a box of bricks, I have't decided yet". ::::::I certainly hope that you are "talking it to death" with other mods in private, because to public it looks like "Project Phoenix" is: ::::::1)???? ::::::2)???? ::::::3)???? ::::::4)Profit! ::::::Michos (talk) 20:13, February 9, 2013 (UTC) :::::::We have a pretty good idea of what we're trying to do: Fix Fig Hunter Wiki. What we don't know is which way we're going to go about it. Now, I could dictate to you all exactly what we're going to do, but that's neither fair nor in the general spirit of a wiki. Wikis are supposed to be group efforts. :::::::Most of the stuff we have to do remains the same, regardless of whether we move or not. We're still going to decide on policies, such as our spoiler policy, our perspective, our writing style, our ties to Fig Hunter, and our visual style; we're still going to carefully look at articles and fix them as needed, based on those policies; we're still going to have to recreate most of the templates, to get rid of deprecated HTML, and to put content first and visual appeal second; in order to fix our templates, we'll have to create a set of template rules (yet more policies); I'm still going to have to do some CSS fixing, and I'm still going to have to look carefully over the JavaScript. The only difference is, one way I'm going to have to spend days fixing up the CSS, and the other way I'm going to have to spend anywhere from a couple of hours to a weekend moving content. In terms of moving content, the lower estimates seem much more likely to me, since there's probably a way for an Administrator or above to download a wiki's files. If there's no way of automatically downloading the files, I'll move them myself, which will still be more efficient and less work than having to go through the CSS. :::::::That's everything I know. :::::::One last thing: Your metaphor is flawed; I am asking people if they want to eat, yes, but I am also waiting for their answer before listing off the various meals that are available. In short, I'm letting you guys decide. Would you rather that I simply informed everybody that the wiki was moving to a new location? 'Cause I can still do that, if you're interested. :::::::DarthKitty (talk) 21:53, February 9, 2013 (UTC) :::::::::Thank you, now there's something to discuss. :::::::::And no, it's nice of you that you let us choose instead of forcing us one way or another. But I think it would be good if we've seen both menus before we decide where to eat, instead of blindly going into one restaurant. :::::::::I'm sorry about being rude. :::::::::I'll wait for someone else to give his opinion before I come back to this. :::::::::Michos (talk) 23:18, February 9, 2013 (UTC) I believe we *can* fix the whole Wikia without having to move it or screw up current pages. All we need to do it to re-adapt them, fix whatever errors are there and make certain pages look much better simply by adjusting the page layout. The Ruby page, for example, could be redone in order to simply display a list of appearances, common usage, and so on. We need not to blow this Internet weblink up, but instead to fix every issue like you would heal a sickness. Or a status ailment, if you will. -NeroZero-BR (talk) 00:29, February 4, 2013 (UTC) Hello everyone, I'm a new user here, but I'd like to express my opinion on the matter. I spent the last few hours working on the wiki, to better understand how things works and what are the most prominent problems. I "fixed" the beast category images and I took the time to go through every disambiguation page to fix the broken templates. All in all, I think the decision should hinge on two main points: 1) If we decide to remain on wikia, how much power do Admins have over the general layout of the page? Speaking bluntly, right now most of the pages are either visually broken or downright ugly. To make a fine example, right now I'm seeing the edit "toolbox" (the edit summary, templates and media add) on the lower right corner of the page, and that's not where it should be. The visual image adding window is a mess and almost every div could use a little padding . If the admins have the power to modify or change those elements, than it's feasible to remain and work out the problems of the wiki right here. I'll even volunteer myself to work with code, as I have a little experience with html/css/js. If we can't solve those problem, then working here is a waste of time, as we'll never be able to completely fix the wiki as intended. 2) If we decide to leave wikia for another hoster: Given that I've never managed a wiki page, how difficult do you think it would be to transfer everything on another wiki manager? I've read that Shoutwiki will do the transfer for you, but I'm not sure. Also, once the content has been transferred, wouldn't you need to rework the default layout to recreate the intended visual style? If yes, we should factor that into the work needed to get the wiki back on track. Thank you, Musimaniac (talk) 21:33, February 10, 2013 (UTC)Musimaniac Intercourse Guess what, guys?! I've been idiotically wasting your time the past few days!! I'll bet many of you are glad to hear that I've been being a moron the past week or so, since that allows you to stroke your own ego and such!! As it turns out, Wikia supplies a second stylesheet to all wikis it hosts; a "master sheet," of sorts. Basically, Wikia has, somewhere, a stylesheet with all of their default styles. Individual wikis then add supplementary stylesheets which overwrite the "master sheet." I thought, until recently when I took a look at a test wiki, that Wikia gave each wiki a stylesheet when it was created. That stylesheet, I thought, could then be edited by high-ranking members of a wiki (such as admins). Here's the thing: Much of the brokenness and ugliness, much of those "leaks" I kept babbling about, are a result of disagreements between the "master sheet" and our own. I thought I would have to go into our stylesheet, and painstakingly fix every minute problem with it, a process which would take days of work. In reality, however, I can simply delete our stylesheet and Wikia's "master sheet" will kick in (after the old stylesheet is removed from your browser's cache). That will take care of the brokenness and stuff. Then, once we decide on a visual style, I can make a new stylesheet. Huzzah! Now, I'm going to say this simply because I'm not sure if I was being clear enough or not: Project Phoenix was *NOT* solely about moving to a new host! That was only a part of it. The goal of Project Phoenix is to fix Fig Hunter, to set it up for prosperity rather than failure. As such, as I've hopefully made clear already, Project Phoenix is still on. I'll have the next topic introduced tomorrow or the day after, but probably tomorrow. This will give you guys time to make fun of my stupidity, and to stroke your own egos. Hopefully I'll do a better job of explaining it this time, and hopefully my thought process isn't as retarded as it was this time. =/ DarthKitty (talk) 01:04, February 11, 2013 (UTC) :Everything went better than expected :don't beat yourself over it, what matters most is that we took the first step in project phoenix. If you need me, I'll be over here stroking my ego (that sounds incredibly dirty :p) :Musimaniac (talk) 09:35, February 11, 2013 (UTC)Musimaniac Connection to Fig Hunter I think this wiki should be about Fig Hunter Universe, rather than the community or the games. So, page about Firequill is to be either removed, or moved into a special category about not-really-related-stuff, while the articles about Yalortian holidays stay. The page about Pseudo could be turned into more serious informations about, well, the creator of FH Universe, while all that stuff could be moved to a page about Pseudolonewolf's Avatar, as he appears in some of his games - like Deliverance. And I would be careful with saying that "Because it's something Pseudo would prefer to not be mentioned", because in a few years stuff like Raider, Deliverance, and even further MARDEK's might become "That shameful history" that is not to be mentioned. I have no idea how the policy should be written though. Allowing to post any information from any game/old site is risky as smeg, and even though I would love this to happen, I DO NOT SUPPORT IT. Maybe we should just pick the oldest information that we already have here, check where and when it comes from, and say hat anything older is not-canon and therefore should not be posted on the wiki. Or something like that. And, regarding the Visual style, We should pick a style now and stick to it, ignoring the changes on the FH. I'd support making our own colour palette not copying it from the new site, or any of the old sites. It might be similar, but not an exact copy. Something that would go well with the games and the universe, ya know. I think that's all I have to say Michos (talk) 23:46, February 11, 2013 (UTC) I was going to start off the conversation with my opinion on the matter, but I took so long writing it out that I was ninja'd by Michos! :o Anyway, here's what I wrote: I'll start us off with my opinion. Which you can probably guess. I think Fig Hunter Wiki should move its focus to games created by Pseudolonewolf. This would do several things: *We'd be less personal. **Pseudolonewolf, like everybody else, needs personal space, and any blow we can deal to his "paparazzi," if you will, is a good thing indeed. *We'd be more clear on exactly what to include. **No articles on Medals (except for ones in games, obviously), and so on. **We'll probably better define this later, but it sets out a good starting point. *We'd be a little more independent. **No more "We should use and British English because Pseudolonewolf does so!" or "We should make our pages brown because Pseudolonewolf made his pages brown!" **We should do things because we come to a conclusion as a community. **Just to be clear, I have nothing against Pseudolonewolf, against British English, or even against the color brown. It's just that wikis are a community effort, and Pseudolonewolf plays next to no role in the community. If you look at other wikis, their styles usually aren't based on styles used by the creators of the media or on the media that the wiki is about. ***Final Fantasy does not routinely use yellow and white, for instance. ***Star Trek doesn't use that stripy grey commonly. ***Pokemon doesn't use mostly green. ***Metroid doesn't use mostly purple. ***I could hunt down a hundred other sources if I were willing to go through the effort. But I'm not, so I hope you get the idea. *It would help to establish our writing style. **It wouldn't "define it entirely," but it would be a good starting point. *There was at least one other thing I wanted to mention. Oh well. There are a few more things to discuss: *If we do separate a little bit more, then we should consider how much of Firequill's stuff to include. **If we decide to focus solely on Pseudolonewolf, then we could still include Vulpin Adventure, since Pseudolonewolf composed the music for it. *If we separate a little bit more, we might want to consider getting our name surgically altered. **Yes, that is possible. ***And no, we won't have to move our content. ***I'm not sure if the uri fighunter.wikia.com would redirect users automatically, though. ****I'd ask about that when submitting the name-change request, so don't worry about it for the time being. *****If it does redirect users automatically, then we've got no problem. *****If it doesn't redirect users automatically, then we'd have to somehow inform Pseudolonewolf that we were changing our name. ******Knowing him, he'd probably get offended, or something. =/ *******Maybe changing our name isn't such a good idea. ********This is a lot of list-levels. :o ***Although we'd need to agree to do it, as a community. **I was thinking maybe "Astrostles Wiki," in terms of a new name. ***It's the place where most of Pseudolonewolf's games have taken place. ****Though not all of them. CBC is an example. ****It's also hard to spell. ***Alternately, we could go with something more metaphorical. ****Not that I can think of anything, mind you. *Again, I think I forgot to mention something. Eh. DarthKitty (talk) 00:02, February 12, 2013 (UTC) : Wait, just one question: Why do you assume that CBC does not take place in Astrostles Galaxy? Yalortism exists there, so it obviously takes place in universe, and I don't think location is stated, so for all we know, It could take place in a technologically lacking region of Nineveh, or something. : Mh, and I think we should keep the url after we change the name. I'm gonna spend the next few hours coming up with cool sounding names for a wiki. : Michos (talk) 13:08, February 12, 2013 (UTC) I agree with pretty much every point made. The wiki should be indipendent and objective, more about the content and lore of the games than about pseudo personal life. I agree with the separation of style and content from the main site, but I still can't fathom what a better name would be for the wiki. Some pages really need to go, like the aforementioned Medals, Firequill, April Fools Day or anything that's not about the games. My proposed plan of action from here on forward is: *Decide on Content Policy *Decide on Visual Style *Delete irrelevant pages, according to the new policy *Fix Templates (where necessary) *Modify pages to reflect changes in templates *Rewrite Css in accordance with point 2. *and that's it. Create new content Maybe I missed something, but I think that's the order we should follow. My reasoning is: We should decide first on policies, because they have an impact on all the following work. Then we should delete irrelevant pages, so as to have a clearly defined content base on wich to work. Fix Templates for good. we need to create a well defined structure for info, create documentation and be consistent in the definition of templates. while rewriting the disambiguation pages, I noticed that one of the temp used only lowercase words for the parameters name, while another used CamelCasing. That needs to be fixed, and parameters names need to be standardized as much as possible. Also, it's important to define a common style for similar templates. the MItemBox temp should be almost identical to the DeliveranceItem temp (wich should be renamed to DItemBox, to facilitate memorization). Also, is it possible to completely separate the visualization style of templates (font,text color, bg color) from the content definition? that would help for maintenance later on. Revrite Css only at the very end, to account for changes in the content layout. And furthermore, if it ain't broke, don't fix it...first. Sorry if I rambled offtopic, but I needed to get those ideas off my chest. --Musimaniac (talk) 09:28, February 12, 2013 (UTC)Musimaniac Well, I whink this wiki should be more like an archive of all Pseudo's work (Fig Hunter related, of course). Deleting holidays and stuff like that would be a great loss! It was on a original Yalortism website, so it should be considered canon and I think it should stay. And about the change of wiki's name... New Pseudo's art site is Ehaiah, so we could do something universe related, but not as big as the whole galaxy! We should stick to something smaller, like "The Oreon Library", or "Yalortian Archives". Link can stay the way it is, some newbies would obviously look for the Fig Hunter wiki, not "Ortekian Mainframe" or something. We could make a poll on the archive of Fig Hunter HERE, ON WIKI, to decide the new name, or we could just stick to "Fig Hunter wiki". It's okay. DeeKayFTW (talk) 10:22, February 12, 2013 (UTC) :I'm going to respond to everybody en masse, to save myself some time!! Huzzah!! :@Michos: First, I thought Pseudolonewolf mentioned in a blog post waaaaaaaaay before CBC was released that it wasn't set in the same universe as his other games. I went a-hunting, and found the blog post, though it doesn't actually say anything of the sort! The blog post in question (I'm quite surprised I remembered it at all, considering it was posted in late 2010, back on Old Fig) mentions how Pseudolonewolf and Firequill were considering making games together, set in a different universe. It then goes on to mention CBC, although it wasn't graced with that acronym for another 14 days. It says that CBC was inspired by Firequill, and since the games Pseudolonewolf and Firequill considered working on were set in a different universe, I presumed that CBC was as well. My mistake. :Vulpin Adventure isn't set in the same universe though, so my main point, that "Astrostles wiki" wouldn't be an accurate name, still stands. :p :Second, I'm pretty sure we have to change the uri if we want to change our name. Like, if we go through that routine thingy. We could go through and try to rename every possible page, but that would be a huge hassle, and I'm not sure it's possible to remove the "Fig Hunter Wiki" from certain pages anyway. We could also just make a few key changes, like the wiki logo, but that would be misleading to our users. ("Why is a page entitled 'Fig Hunter Wiki/Project Phoenix' on a wiki entitled 'blah blah'? And why does it say 'Fig Hunter Wiki' in the location bar??"). The easiest and least misleading thing to do if we decide to change our name would be to follow the procedure I linked to. And all of this presumes users wouldn't be redirected anyway; if people are redirected to the new name when they try to go to the old one, then it doesn't matter how many people try to go to the old name because they'll just be sent to the new one anyway. And and, as I said, if we decide to change our name, I'll ask about the redirect thing, so don't worry about it. :Third, as I may-or-may-not have made clear, the "Fig Hunter Universe," as you put it, is the Astrostles galaxy. If the wiki focuses solely on content from that, then Vulpin Adventure would have to be cut. In addition, information not pertinent to games that is still a part of the collective "Fig Hunter Lore" would be kept, even if it isn't really all that... well... notable. The Yalortian Holidays are a perfect example of this: they serve no purpose in any game (as far as I'm aware), so why would anybody bother looking at them? The answer is, they wouldn't; the lack of activity on that page is a clear indication of this. To sum it up, information which isn't relavent to games is dead information, and should have no role in our wiki. :Finally, you're getting ahead of yourself a little. We'll discuss what content to include and visual style at a later date. Right now, just be aware that our relative closeness to Fig Hunter will affect these subjects, and leave it at that. :@Musimaniac: Okay. Your suggestion on the order of discussions in Project Phoenix are duly noted. Please note, in turn, that I won't necessarily follow them, as is my prerogative. :@DeeKay: First, as I said above, it's probably best to go through the established method in terms of changing our name. If we do so. :Second, I think our user-base, back when we had a user-base that is, should act as a "focusing lens," of sorts. What do people look for when they come to Fig Hunter Wiki? We don't exactly have a perfect idea, but our edit histories are good indicators; that is to say, I think we can safely assume that the most frequently edited pages or sections, the areas with the most and the highest-quality content, are the areas that users come looking for. Based on this standard, we see that MARDEK pages are the most-commonly viewed ones, after which comes Deliverance and Raider and CBC and all the other games Pseudolonewolf has made. :Our users care most about games. They aren't coming to Fig Hunter Wiki to look for Yalortian Holidays, they aren't coming to Fig Hunter Wiki to track down information relavent only to the original Yalortism website, they're coming here for information about Pseudolonewolf's games. :Would it be, as you put it, a "great loss"? I don't really think it would be, to most people. :DarthKitty (talk) 00:43, February 13, 2013 (UTC) ::(Just a quick note- I'm not gonna give my motivations here and now, as this is completelty irrelevant, but I dislike calling the universe that Pseudo creates "Astrostles Galaxy". I know that he himself said that this is it's name, but to me, It's confusing, and I prefer to differentiate between a PLACE called Astrostles Galaxy, that is, well, a galaxy, and FHU, it is- everything, everywhere, up to infinity, that works on the laws invented by Pseudo. Now back to the point.) ::Eh. Of course people are not coming here looking for informations about Yalortism website. That's why we are not providing information on who was a moderator or who had the most posts on forum. But we should have informations about the religion, that's existence is well established, and that is one of the main themes in all Pseudo's games. '''No, seriously, list me all the games that Pseudo released (Even as unfinished) and that didn't involve Yalortism in any way. Finding a YALORT- related treasure or artifact is still mentioning it's existence. Those holidays may not be something that is brought up, but they exist, and every good Yalortian on Belfan or Proteus reads his selected poems and waits for his present from Piggle XXIV. Vehrn is probably a veteran of many YALORT's birthday parties. ::''Oh, by the way, do you by any chance remember the password to the Monastery in Lifewood? It must have slipped out of my memory. '' ::Also, "People don't look for them" is no argument. Just because more people look up famous pornstars on wikipedia, than, let's say, the person who wrote the first english dictionary, does not mean we should act like he never existed. What about the informations about planets and systems from the old encyclopaedia? Are you going to remove them too? ::Obviously, the articles on the holidays have no way of being very big - and they aren't - and maybe we should fuse them together, into just "Yalortian Holidays", but removing it, to me, feels simply wrong. ::Michos (talk) 11:36, February 13, 2013 (UTC) :::Sorry for not responding yesterday. I had stuff to do in that mystical land known only vaguely as "real life." I'm back now, though. :::Pseudolonewolf hasn't created a universe. Pseudolonewolf has created a galaxy: the Astrostles Galaxy. That galaxy exists within the same universe as we do. Earth (that is to say, Sol III) has a page for precisely this reason. Differentiating the fictional place from the wiki (presuming we name it that) would be simple: the place is called the "Astrostles '''Galaxy," and the wiki would be called the "Astrostles Wiki." I doubt this would confuse most people, since I think most people understand the difference between a "galaxy" and a "wiki." :::I never said, nor do I believe, that we should remove the entirety of the Yalortism page. I think, instead, that we should reform and refine it, focusing it on its role in Pseudolonewolf's games. The question is, how do the Yalortian Holidays affect any of Pseudolonewolf's games? They don't. So why should we include them? Because, according to you and DeeKay, it would be "a great loss," and would feel "simply wrong." :::Your entire argument seems to revolve around a singular point: that this wiki would not be the same without information irrelevant to the games, and that, furthermore, it would be worse without it. This is a perfect example of an Appeal to Tradition, a logical fallacy wherein an argument or claim is deemed incorrect or is disregarded because it involves change or breaking from tradition. I suppose you could call it a preemptive They Changed It, Now It Sucks. :::I hope you have other reasons to back up your position, because this isn't going to cut it. :::DarthKitty (talk) 01:26, February 15, 2013 (UTC) :::::Of course he didn't create a universe! Everything that takes place in Fig Hunter games takes place within our world and is totally real. Just like Star Trek will take place in the future, Conan the Barbarian happened in the past, everything from Stargate is happening right now, and long time ago in a far away galaxy (That is totally in our universe!) there was a war betwen the Empire and the Rebels. :::::That's how fantasy books, movies and games work, isn't it? :::::And if in any future games, a giant spaceship comes and blasts the earth, it will obviously mean it happened in reality, not in some fantasy universe that Pseudolonewolf is creating. :::::Also, good thing that you understood my point, being the difference between universe and galaxy, so you could explain to me a difference between'' a galaxy and a website. Especially that I didn't even mention naming the website there. And that I made a point that the whole thing was irrelevant to the rest of the conversation. '' :::::Okay, now, sarcasm aside, and back to the point. '''If you want to continue the discussion about the name of the universe - NOT the name of the wiki - please respond in Astrostles Galaxy talk page. :::::Well, it is pointless to demand explanation on how the holidays are relevant to the games, considering that my main point is: '''not everything that is on the wiki should need to be related to the games. In my opinion, this is limiting the wiki. If Pseudo ever starts to write books that take place on Kalhu, they should be included. If he makes a blog post with an explanation on how Ninevehn interstellar travel works, it should be included on the wiki. :::::I'm not saying that "We should keep the irrelevant informations because WEEEEE WEEEE sob sob", but "We shouldn't make the wiki be only about the games, but about all the things that take place in universe created by PLW/That part of the real universe that only Pseudo can observe and tells us about (Delete as appropriate)". Why? Well, one, because Pseudo's creations are freaking amazing, two, because maybe one beautiful day there will be more people who care about the plot, the setting, and about how the world works, than about how to punch an enemy to deal more damage. Three, the setting can usually be more interesting than the actual game content (As is actually NOT the case with the holidays), and Pseudo puts a lot of time into figuring out how everything fits together. Four, because it is sometimes hard to decide what is actually relevant to the games, and what's not. Is a blogpost about a character in the game relevant? If yes, why informations about a religion are not relevant? If not, why the informations about that character in the in-game pedia are? Maybe we should only care about mechanics? :::::Also - this is a very weak point, I know it, but still - many wikis do so (it is, expand on what they cover). Mass Effect wikia, or Dragon Age wikia have a lot of informations about the games, but they also have articles about things that happened in comics, books, shorts on the internet, everything that takes place in the same setting, even if none of the characters from the games appear there. :::::Any step towards limiting the wiki's content, and not expanding it is a very bad thing to do. Next we might say "Let's only make this wiki about the games that were completed, and exclude the unfinished ones" and in 10 years it's going to be "Only the games that are sold on steam belong on this wiki". :::::Here, now I want to hear your arguments why we should only write about game mechanics in CBC , and ignore everything else. :::::Michos (talk) 12:46, February 15, 2013 (UTC) ::::::I'm with Michos on this particular issue, as I believe that Yalortism is a fundamental part of the game's background. If we delete it, we might as well erase any reference to the planets of the galaxy, their inhabitants and every other piece of non essential information. That said, it could use a little trimming around the edges: as they are now, the so controversial Holidays could be compacted in a subsection in the main Yalortism page. This way we'll keep the information around, for the sake of itself, while cleaning a few useless pages. What we should not forget is that the point of the discussion is (was?) the separation from the FigHunter website. As I see it, there are a few pages much less useful than the religion inspired ones. this, this and even this are completely unrelated to everything in the games, and are the ones really cluttering the wiki. ::::::I don't expect both of you to give much weight to my words, as I'm relatively new to the games (and an outright newb in the wiki) but this is what my onest opinion is. ::::::If you will, I lack the bias of tradition, as the tradition is not mine. ::::::--Musimaniac (talk) 21:09, February 15, 2013 (UTC)Musimaniac :::::::Well, Earth was one of the planets in the original encyclopaedia on Fig Hunter dot com, so I personally think it should stay. :::::::DeeKayFTW (talk) 21:22, February 15, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::It's not related in any way to the game's galaxy, or the games in themselves. It's only there to serve as the birthplace of Pseudo and as a collection of HGTTG jokes. I can see the point of creating such a page in a bigger context (games, website and personal life of the author), but the separation from that context it's exactly what we are discussing right now. Not to mention that your comment is a fine example of the Appeal to tradition DarthKitty mentioned. ::::::::Musimaniac (talk) 22:20, February 15, 2013 (UTC)Musimaniac